An Interview with My Doula Thandiwe: Oshun and Pregnancy
April 2023 | New Jersey
I am so grateful to have had a doula like Thandiwe for my first pregnancy and delivery. I wanted to share information about her services with my readers, so we met up in Brooklyn to reflect on our experience together. Get into the interview!
Writer: Chante Dyson
Firstly, I have to thank my beautiful sister Jerusaliem for hosting us on her Brooklyn rooftop for the interview. We had a time together and I know that you all will enjoy reading this interview and learning about Thandiwe’s doula services. It is so important that we share these resources about Black birth workers to all who will listen, especially for those Black women out there who are expecting and those who are also planning for the future. We have the power to experience healthier and more peaceful birth outcomes, but we need to be taking the care back into our own hands and going back to the traditional ways of our maternal ancestors. One thing I learned about birth is that it is vital to visualize the outcomes that you desire and put your best energy forward to ensure that those desires are met each step of the journey. Now this is no easy task and pregnancy or giving birth itself is not easy, which is why having a doula or doulas present throughout it all is so important. I am so grateful to have had a doula like Thandiwe for my first pregnancy and delivery. I wanted to share information about her services with my readers, so we met up in Brooklyn to reflect on our experience together. Get into the interview!
CD: Thank you for doing this interview for the blog about your doula services, what they entail, how you got there and overall tips in general from not only this experience, but all of your experiences working in this space. So, what is a doula? Let's just start there — what exactly is it for those who don't know?
TY: A doula is not a word that's only specific to birth — you can have a doula in a lot of different contexts. For example, there are some people who are death or transition doulas. A doula is just someone who provides support. The type of doula that I am, and that most people are familiar with, is a birth doula. We provide emotional, educational, physical and sometimes spiritual support to a birthing parent or birthing parents. That can look like providing knowledge on what to expect, or about what that person is currently going through, whether it's literally massaging somebody who's in pain from labor or from pregnancy, and then also just emotionally being another person within your birth team or family that you can lean on and talk to as an advocate for you.
CD: Right, and then how would you say your doula services are unique? I had a wonderful experience with you and I want my readers to know what makes you stand out as an incredible doula to have on one’s birth team.
TW: Yes, so my work as a doula is unique because of the spiritual component. I am an initiated priestsess of the West African goddess Oshun who is governed by the healing power of water. She works in the realm of fertility, pregnancy and postpartum. I’m also an initiated priestess of Ifa which is a spiritual system that has a lot to do with aligning an individual with their destiny and their purpose within the universe. I bring my spiritual practice into my work as a doula — some ways are more pronounced than others. So I do spiritual work for my clients, but then at the same time, some of it’s more literal in the sense of embodying that healing power of water, that healing energy that Oshun brings.
CD: I definitely felt that presence during my birth. So what made you want to become a doula and what was your pathway to get there?
TW: Something that is that often said in doula trainings is that doulas are born, they're not made. You kind of have to already be interested in birth to work so closely with people who are birthing because it’s intense. For as long as I can remember, I’d been interested in watching shows on lifetime where women would be giving birth to babies and that’s even what I liked to watch as a child. So I was always kind of obsessed with birth, but it wasn't until I was in my young adulthood that I even learned what a doula is and when I got into the work. Another reason I wanted to be a doula is because I have personal goals and dreams of being a mother of many myself, so I wanted to get very familiar with the process and the knowledge so that when I go through it myself, I’m empowered. I mean, I still won’t really know until I’m there.
And so because of my interests, I went through multiple training programs. I went through DONA which is the most highly acknowledged certification program. I went through a Black-owned, Brooklyn-based certification program called Ancient Song, which is really centered around Black indigenous people of color traditions when it comes to birthing as well as advocacy. You know, a lot of Black and Brown women in hospitals or birthing spaces are often disregarded, so I learned a lot about how to represent Black and Brown bodies in birthing spaces. And then I also went through a local Maryland-based herbal initiative called Wild Ginger, and while in that program, I learned a lot about herbal knowledge and the things you can ingest and put on topically to help with birth. And then, of course, my experiences helping people in birth.
CD: Very cool, I didn’t know about the herbal experience! So touching on what you just said, my next question is why should Black women in particular be advocating for themselves throughout their pregnancy journeys? And then what is the role of the doula in regard to that advocacy?
TW: Especially here in the United States, birth is very regulated and there's a very clear norm on how to birth. And if you want to step out of that norm, it becomes very difficult for you on multiple levels. It’s difficult because of judgment; it’s difficult because of resources and it's difficult because people don't want to see you succeed when you go outside of this norm of laying on your back in a hospital and getting all these different interventions.
CD: Why do you think they don’t want us to succeed in going outside of the norm?
TW: I mean, there's so many reasons. I think it's because they would love to see us die, that's just the bottom line. They would love to see Black women and Black birthing people die and they would like to see Black children die because it happens so much. But then also like on a more spiritual tip, I think it’s because birth is one of the most empowering things you can do. So if we have a say in our birth, then we have more power and they don't want us to experience that. But to answer the second part of your question about how doulas help with the advocacy is because we have the training or knowledge on what some of the alternatives are. Some people don't know that you don't have to give birth in a hospital. Some people don't know that you don't have to cut your umbilical cord the minute the baby's born. Some people don't know you can birth in water. Doulas provide those other options to people.
CD: I love that answer, thank you. In my experience, being based in New Jersey, I found it really difficult to find my preferred all Black birth team. It was very challenging to get that, but eventually I was able to. In my search, I learned that there are some very unique barriers to entry, especially for Black women in their processes going from being doulas to midwives. Why do you think that is and can you speak on if you
plan on continuing on the path to becoming a midwife in the future?
TY: Well I think it goes back to what I said about preserving the lives of Black bodies because the difference between a midwife and a doula is that the doula is the support — the team member that is helping you and lifting you up in your decisions, whereas the midwife is the doctor. The midwife is the one who's performing the medical procedures and services. If you have Black health care providers (and no I’m not saying that every Black person has another Black person's best interest; we know that's not true) you have a better chance in them knowing how your body works and them wanting to ensure that it works the way that will bring you and your baby longevity and long life. There are just a lot of barriers such as racism in any school or educational field as well as other barriers for Black midwives.
It’s medical school; you have to go through levels of training, so it just takes time. I know there's a lot who are going through the process now. I feel like our generation is revolutionizing birth a lot so I would say give it ten years, I feel like you’ll see a lot more. For me, I actually would love to be a midwife. Based on the other many hyphenated aspects of myself, going to medical school would require me to block out the time but it’s in the cards, I pray and hope that I can be a midwife.
CD: That is beautiful. How does being a doula relate to your artistry and spiritual work?.
TW: So the musical aspect I feel like is part of the spiritual aspect. My artistry has always been intertwined into my spirituality. Through my music, I’ve gotten to travel a lot and I've got to interface with a lot of people who have given birth. A lot of pregnant people have been at my performances and shows. Music is a healing power. I didn't really bring that into what we did together fully, but I think because I’m an artist and musician it kind of plays in to what I embody and represent — providing that healing and soothing energy.
Thandiwe April 2023 | Photo by Sen Floyd
CD: What are some lessons that Oshun teaches women about fertility, pregnancy and giving birth?
TW: Well the biggest aspect of Oshun is water. She is a water deity. Water is so big in birth because the amniotic fluid in your womb is a form of water. Oshun represents that whole journey — fertility, conception, pregnancy, birth and postpartum. Those are all realms that her energy exists in and water is present through every point. Oshun represents the river and in the tradition, there's a particular river that people go to and collect the water and it's said to have this power to help people conceive. There's the spiritual aspect, this miraculous thing, but also it's just the natural healthy bacteria, the microbes and the different plants and herbs that are in the forest where the river flows all coming together to make this concoction of healing water. Thousands of people have been able to successfully conceive from this water. She plays that role, but then there's water surrounding the baby and there’s also water births. Oshun represents divine feminine energy — what makes women so powerful. Like so many other female and feminine deities, Oshun is one of many that represents that power that we have as women. Birth is one, if not the most clearest representatives of the power that the human body and that the female body has to create, hold and birth life.
CD: Absolutely. Right now I'm in the postpartum stage. How does water and Oshun’s energy play a role here?
TW: This is really in all stages of pregnancy, but the soothing power of water. I remember when you were in labor and you were like, “Let me just get back in the bathtub.” Even if it’s topical — warm water on a towel, or ingesting warm things that are water based. Those are all aspects that come from this spiritual power of water. Outside of that, having to bathe your baby. That’s a really deep way to connect with your child. And lactating isn’t necessarily water, but you are feeding your child with this liquid form that comes directly from you. And that is the source of nutrients for the child for their first few months of life. It’s not water, but Oshun works in that realm of lactating and breastfeeding.
CD: Do you have a favorite doula tip for any of the stages of pregnancy?
TW: Above any and everything, the biggest tip is that it's never you and your opinion as a doula; it's always what the birthing parents want. And so being able to represent that and support that is the biggest thing because sometimes doulas can get in their head like, “Oh I have all this knowledge, I know what's in their best interest.” But the process is just less stressful for the doula and for everybody if you're like,” What do you want? Okay, this is how we're gonna do it.” But a tangible tip, this is something I did with you, is utilizing aromatherapy as opposed to just a diffuser or burning incense or whatever. This looks like rubbing your hands in an essential oil and then almost doing reiki over the person laboring. It's energetic; as humans we are able to transfer energy with each other when we do this kind of hovering. So there's another level of connection. To manage the intensity and high strung energy, it’s good to put essential oils on the doula’s body and then share it with the birthing parents so that everyone is getting that aromatherapy.
CD: Yeah that was very powerful and it stood out to me in those moments where I felt like I was going between realms; I remember that vividly. My next question is really important and we talked a lot about it during our visits — what is the role that mental health and wellness plays throughout the birthing process?
TW: It plays a huge role because your mental state can inform how you deal with the reality of being pregnant. Just coming to terms with being pregnant can be a lot. Also your mental health can impact your pregnancy; a lot of people miscarry due to stress. Then you have your mind state when you're in labor. You just said in another question that you were in between realms. So imagine if you have certain mental difficulties where you already be in between realms; that just takes it to a whole other level. And let's say you don't have any mental difficulties or whatever, that pain can still get so extreme. I remember in our prenatal visits, we did an exercise where you were holding the ice and I had you go to a different place in a meditative state. If you don't have the ability to find some wellness and some grounding, the experience can be way more difficult. When you're actively giving birth you have to work with your mental to get through. In postpartum, we always hear about depression. It’s a huge, very normal thing that a lot of people go through. There should be no stigma around it, but that has everything to do with mental health. Some people have never had any type of depression but then they have this postpartum depression and that becomes a new situation that they have to come to terms with while also having this newborn baby. It plays a huge role; it's a really hard part about the birthing process, but that’s why doulas are there as well as friends and family.
CD: So reflecting on our experience together, what would you say are some of the biggest takeaways from my birth with you as my doula?
TW: I have so much love for all of my clients, all the people I’ve worked with in the past. You definitely have the smoothest birth that I've ever worked with. So I would say the biggest takeaway was just your ability to be focused. It seemed like you were very much in it and you were able to pray and meditate through it. Some people can’t even get to that point or perhaps there are things that happen if they are in the hospital or somewhere else. I've had experiences where people had a plan, they went into that birthing space and the doctors were like, “F*ck your plan.” And that just threw everything off — like anxiety attacks while their water is breaking which is not their fault. But what I took away from your experience is how powerful it is to be in control of your environment because that can inform so much about how you birth.
CD: Thank you so much again Thandiwe. Can you share any final takeaways and how folks can get in contact with you in regards to your work?
TW: My final thought is that I just want to affirm to anybody who's ever interested in birthing that this is an ancient practice that's been here since the beginning of human time. We’ve been birthing from the beginning. In this 2023 American world, it’s so easy to think that you have to do it one way, but you really don't have to do it one way. You can do it however you want to do it; that's my biggest piece of advice and takeaway.
If you want to get in touch with me, the best way is to go to my website which is bythandiwe.com and there you can find an application for my doula services as well as other things that I do — my spiritual work, different products I sell and there's also a contact form if you ever have questions or want to reach out.
Thank you for reading!
With love,
Chante
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Chante Dyson is an artist, writer and content creator living in New Jersey. She is the founder of The Godyssey, a lifestyle blog where she encourages women to step into their goddess power. On her blog, you’ll find lifestyle content touching on motherhood, creativity, entrepreneurship and wellness. She hopes that her work helps women cultivate and express their own divine feminine energy.
Read more here.
